Psi. Official chat for the Psi Jabber client (http://psi-im.org)

Tuesday, 13 June 2006< ^ >

∞+1 has set the subject to: Psi: Kicks for Communication (http://psi-im.org) | Room language: English | We often sleep, so if you don't get an answer immediately, hang around :)

Room Configuration

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[00:05:20] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 12 Jun 20:01 - Beginnings of an OptionsTreeViewModel. - Remko Troncon
[00:14:02] <albert> I like the new commit feed.
[00:14:38] <Kev> new in the sense of marginally tidier? :)
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[00:18:07] <zenek> The popup is too long if the status message is to long.
[00:18:13] Marcho leaves the room
[00:18:26] <zenek> (I mean popup is too wide)
[00:18:46] <Kev> what popup?
[00:19:04] <zenek> errr, the "Contact is online" one?
[00:19:13] <zenek> or whatever you call it :-)
[00:22:04] <zenek> It even doesn't break on whitespace
[00:22:17] <zenek> at least it does so to me
[00:23:22] <albert> It also lists modified files.
[00:23:43] <Kev> ah, you mean the rss itself, not the one in here
[00:25:13] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 12 Jun 20:20 - Temporarily sending initial MUC status after join again. - Remko Troncon
[00:25:47] <zenek> remko: Does it mean I don't have to remind you? :-)
[00:26:04] <remko> indeed
[00:26:08] <remko> now we'll be reminded by nagging users
[00:26:09] <remko> :)
[00:26:38] <Spike411> Yeah, bug tracking systems are so 90s...
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[00:29:25] <remko> actually, changed my mind, it's pretty antisocial to send 2 packets :)
[00:42:34] <zenek> why so?
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[00:43:44] <Gof> hello
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[00:44:02] <Gof> Kev: are you there ?
[00:44:09] <Kev> maybe
[00:44:13] <Gof> ok :-)
[00:45:22] <Gof> Kev: do you remember the discution yesterday with Vorner, wanting to write a plugin per application and per client ?
[00:45:54] <Kev> yes
[00:45:56] <Kev> well
[00:46:04] <Kev> only per client I thought, for all his games?
[00:46:15] <Gof> all his games ?
[00:46:28] <Gof> well, i drafted a JEP
[00:46:30] <Gof> http://gof.homeip.net/~oli2/jep/invitation.html
[00:46:47] <Gof> does that looks correct ?
[00:48:33] <remko> automatically launching applications. This is starting to sound like MS :)
[00:48:55] <Kev> heh, don't be rude to our guests ;)
[00:48:57] <Gof> remko: this is automatically, but after the user has clicked on [Accept]
[00:49:01] <remko> is that a JEP that tries to avoid social contact even more, such that you don't even have to *ask* to start a game ? :D
[00:49:23] <remko> Gof: yeah, i know, i was joking
[00:50:10] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 12 Jun 20:43 - Sending full login status when joining MUC. - Remko Troncon
[00:50:37] <remko> i don't get the jingle example, though
[00:50:47] <remko> jingle is a jabber protocol, why should you want to do that outside an IM client ?
[00:51:35] <Spike411> remko: hmm, see Tapioca. It could be reused. But they use different approach (direct bindigs or D-Bus)
[00:51:49] <zenek> btw, the transfer manager could show the directory of file at least int he tooltip... I forgot where I saved my file :-)
[00:52:05] <Spike411> haha :)
[00:52:13] <remko> zenek: we all have that problem :)
[00:52:27] <remko> Gof: and if you make a JEP, you'll have to put the protocol in the jabber.org/protocol namespace ;)
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[00:55:08] <ogoffart> (sorry i get disconnected, jabber muc history is nice :-) )
[00:55:37] <ogoffart> (22:50:47) remko: jingle is a jabber protocol, why should you want to do that outside an IM client ? <= Because we would like to implement all video and audio stuff into kopete
[00:56:11] <remko> ... which is an IM client
[00:56:17] <remko> where is the third-party application ?
[00:56:22] <ogoffart> IM != voice conference
[00:56:41] <remko> no, but you are running it from the same appliaciotn
[00:56:48] <ogoffart> why ?
[00:57:01] <ogoffart> we prefer having jingle implemented in, say, kcall
[00:57:13] <ogoffart> (note we still don't know what we will do)
[00:57:25] <remko> i see
[00:57:45] <remko> well, i think a node in the protocol namespace of jabber is confusing
[00:58:17] <remko> although there is a lot of confusing issues
[00:58:25] <remko> how do you 'name' your application ?
[00:58:38] <remko> do you have a node for every type of application ? how do you standardize this ?
[00:58:43] <ogoffart> how do i 'name' the application ?
[00:58:51] <remko> suppose i want to play quake against you
[00:59:05] <remko> how do i request that ?
[00:59:07] <ogoffart> well, quake is not a XMPP protocol
[00:59:52] <ogoffart> remko: say there is a chess game over xmpp, which use a chess protocol called
http://foogamecompany/protocol/chess
[00:59:58] <remko> hmm, it feels weird that you are introducing a feature for third party applications in Jabber, and limiting those third party applications to jabber
[01:00:30] <ogoffart> remko: you want to extant that to non xmpp application ?
[01:00:51] <ogoffart> but then the protocol will be much more difficult, we have to echange IP, server, and all the stufff
[01:01:21] <remko> ah, so you want to exchange everything in one session
[01:01:41] <remko> hmmm, but why do you need protocol support for that ?
[01:02:17] <remko> well, i'm starting to understand i think
[01:03:15] <remko> this is a JEP for requesting an entity to fire up a program that provides a certain <feature>
[01:03:27] <ogoffart> exactly
[01:03:34] <zenek> sounds cool :-)
[01:03:35] <remko> why don't you say that in your introduction ?
[01:03:53] <remko> :)
[01:03:58] <iono> =]
[01:04:01] <ogoffart> I'm sure that XMPP is a really good for application that are not related to instent messaging (games, whiteboard, stuff)
[01:04:09] <ogoffart> remko: i will
[01:04:16] <remko> and the protocol should go as follows:
[01:05:43] <remko> 'Client A requests the features form client B (or uses entity capabilities). Client A sees that Client B does not support Feature X, but does support the third-party feature. Client A requests Client B to start up an XMPP app providing feature X. Client B either responds with a succesful IQ, or replies with an error if it does not have such application.'
[01:06:10] <ogoffart> i'm rewriting the introduction
[01:06:31] <Kev> remko: better than that
[01:06:47] <Kev> User A wants to start feature X with User B
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[01:07:22] <Kev> User A's client sees that User B's Client 1 doesn't support the feature, but has the third-party feature
[01:08:18] <Kev> Client 1 responds with an error if it doesn't have such an application
[01:08:53] <Kev> else it fires up Client 2, which does support it, and Client 2 sends the iq to User A's client
[01:09:05] <Kev> although that doesn't gain you much
[01:09:11] <remko> no, you can't do that
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[01:09:45] <remko> you need to reply to the <iq>
[01:09:52] <Kev> right
[01:10:02] <Kev> I didn't mean Client 2 to reply to the iq sent by client 1 :)
[01:10:05] <remko> anyway, cliant a will discover the presence if client 2 logs in :)
[01:10:49] <Kev> true
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[01:14:02] <zenek> What if the Client 1 informed in some way it has successfuly launched the app instead of User A waiting for magical amount of time for a presence? I am not xmpp-educated though, so don't pay too much attention on me
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[01:14:51] <remko> that's not really necessary, is it ?
[01:15:10] <remko> well, maybe it is, but it's generally hard to detect when a client logged in
[01:15:21] <remko> i would say Client A is waiting anyway :D
[01:16:03] <zenek> well, yes... You're right...
[01:20:34] <Gof> i have rewritten the intro
[01:20:58] <Gof> http://gof.homeip.net/~oli2/jep/invitation.html is that more easy to understand ?
[01:21:48] <Gof> (23:14:02) zenek: What if the Client 1 informed in some way it has successfuly launched the app instead of User A waiting for magical amount of time for a presence? <= well, it will be very hard, that would require also a dbus protocol.
[01:22:24] <zenek> Gof: yes... I realized it after remko's answer...
[01:23:22] <zenek> BTW: Maybe you could add a possible password steal into security considerations
[01:23:39] <Kev> how is there a possible password steal?
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[01:24:07] <Gof> if the application is not a trusted one, and has %p in his desktop file
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[01:24:39] <Gof> but that would mean the user has installed a malicious application anyway
[01:24:53] <zenek> yeah
[01:24:56] <Kev> there are no security considerations imo
[01:25:13] <Kev> all you are doing is running applications previously registered into your client
[01:25:21] <Kev> or well
[01:25:59] <zenek> I think giving my password to any third party application should be considered dangerous...
[01:26:01] <Kev> there aren't really
[01:26:07] <Kev> zenek: this jep doesn't do that
[01:26:17] <Kev> well
[01:26:21] <Kev> I haven't read to the end
[01:26:25] <Kev> but I guess it doesn't
[01:26:41] <Kev> you'd set up the external clients out of scope imo
[01:26:48] <Kev> and then just ask them to launch
[01:27:56] <zenek> Kev: Yes, but in the implementation notes part there is a table 3: list of valid parameter variable and %p is used to pass the password to the app eventually.
[01:28:15] <Kev> right
[01:28:24] <Kev> that's a serious concern then, yes
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[01:30:17] <Kev> and as there are other methods of connecting to servers than plain passwords, it's also incomplete
[01:30:19] <zenek> IMO giving the password and JID to the app is good idea from the user's point of view, because if we are talking about games it'd be annoying to fill credentials to every game... But I think digitally signed plugins would be more trustworthy...
[01:34:01] <remko> i think the application already *knows* the c redentials
[01:34:13] <remko> the user id is probably handy
[01:34:23] <remko> in the case of multiple accounts in the app
[01:34:28] <remko> but that should be all that is necessary
[01:34:28] <Gof> in KDE we can use KWallet
[01:34:52] <Gof> but this is not valuable for every application
[01:35:14] <remko> if your application does not have your account registered yet, you should do so manually anyway
[01:35:35] <remko> as there are many, many parameters that need to be set, not just the password (which as mentioned earlier isn't even always needed)
[01:38:17] <Gof> you mean the server and the port ?
[01:38:31] <Gof> this is obsolete info, as it is done with srv now
[01:38:52] <remko> how about server certificates ?
[01:38:59] <remko> client certificates i mean
[01:39:21] <Kev> which gpg key should be used to sign the presence
[01:39:21] <remko> how about compression settings ?
[01:39:22] <Gof> oh, i did not think about that
[01:39:29] <Kev> what the password for the gpg key is
[01:39:31] <Kev> etc etc
[01:39:38] <remko> what if the application does not support SRV ?
[01:39:39] <Gof> ok ok
[01:39:46] <remko> really, configuration should be left to the app
[01:39:51] <remko> the jid should be passed, though
[01:39:51] <Gof> ok
[01:40:01] <Gof> so i remove the password ?
[01:40:04] <Kev> the jid's necessary, yes
[01:41:04] <Kev> thinking about the others now
[01:41:09] <Kev> what is the %u for
[01:41:10] <Kev> ?
[01:41:59] <Gof> url
[01:42:05] <Gof> if the application prefer url
[01:42:21] <Gof> it is compatible with the freedesktop specification
[01:42:38] <Kev> url to what?
[01:42:50] <Gof> xmpp:// as axplained in the table
[01:43:17] <Kev> which table?
[01:43:33] <Gof> Table 3: list of valid paramater variable
[01:43:40] <Kev> that doesn't say what it's a url to
[01:43:55] <remko> and is that a valid XMPP url ?
[01:43:59] <Kev> just that it's a url
[01:44:05] <Kev> which isn't much use :)
[01:44:07] <remko> aren't xmpp uri's standardized ?
[01:44:10] <Gof> bha it replace the %j and %a
[01:44:27] <Kev> remko: yes
[01:44:46] <Kev> Gof: I think you need to explain what those parameters are somewhat :)
[01:45:00] <Gof> ok
[01:45:13] <remko> also, i don't think you can use xmpp uri's that way
[01:45:20] <remko> the xmpp uri only states which user to contact
[01:45:24] <remko> not under which account
[01:45:40] <remko> (i'm talking about the standardized xmpp: URI scheme)
[01:45:59] <remko> and you should substitute http://kopete.org with http://jabber.org ;-)
[01:46:06] <Gof> i'm pretty sure that syntax is allowed
[01:46:16] <Gof> yes i know
[01:46:38] <Spike411> I think there *is* a way to specify which account to use.
[01:46:41] <remko> you are ?
[01:46:44] <remko> oh
[01:46:49] <remko> i must have an old draft then, sorry
[01:46:57] <Spike411> Or at least there was.
[01:47:11] <Spike411> It was connected with the misuse of xmpp://
[01:47:28] <Spike411> I think those two slashes had something to do with that. :)
[01:47:29] <Gof> http://www.xmpp.org/drafts/draft-saintandre-xmpp-iri-04.html#use-authority
[01:48:13] <remko> yeah, i have it now
[01:48:16] <remko> sorry,
[01:48:23] <remko> i had the old one linked from xmpp.org
[01:51:19] <Spike411> Oh my god, what's this fcking European Directive on Taxation of Savings...
[01:51:37] <zenek> ?
[01:52:21] <Spike411> Just a greeting from "my" UK bank.
[01:52:27] <chekov> you pay taxes?
[01:52:53] <Spike411> I think I pay taxes when I work legally and when I have my money on Savings Account, yes.
[01:55:48] <Spike411> Well, I had planned a "trip" to the UK soon anyway. But I got the letter just now and they want my Tax Identification Number (which I don't have, AFAIK) *or* certified copy of my passport/identity card. And they want it... in three days from now.
[01:57:39] <zenek> Maybe it's kind of british humour? :-P
[01:57:56] <Spike411> More like "EU" humor. :/
[02:02:33] <chekov> is ist just for idendification issues or do they want money from you
[02:02:42] <chekov> is it
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[02:19:05] <Spike411> I think they first want some ID... and then they'll probably want the money. :D
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[02:21:40] <albert> How long are you going to stay in UK?
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[02:28:00] <Spike411> ~9 weeks
[02:28:13] <Spike411> If I find some reasonable accomodation. :)
[02:28:34] <zenek> there are many bridges in UK, aren't they? :-)
[02:28:38] <Kev> what is reasonable?
[02:29:04] <Kev> many bridges? o_O
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[02:29:28] <Spike411> Kev: 70 pounds/week for the room I shared with my classmate seemed OK with me. We stayed there for a month.
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[02:29:55] <zenek> Kev: I'm not sure if it's in English, but in Czech we have an idiom for living rather homeless - "live under the bridge"
[02:30:06] <Kev> zenek: ahh
[02:30:29] <zenek> Kev: Translating idioms is not good idea, I know :-)
[02:30:31] <Spike411> zenek: I have not come across many bridges there...
[02:30:59] <Spike411> zenek: but I have spent one night next to the motorway near Birmingham :D
[02:30:59] <zenek> Spike411: well, don't forget your sleeping bag then :-)
[02:31:08] <Kev> Spike411: my gf and I pay about £137/week between us for this house
[02:31:25] <Spike411> That's nice.
[02:32:13] <Spike411> zenek: don't worry, I have one. Quite nice. :)
[02:33:02] <Spike411> Kev: we had our room with TV & (ahem) big bed & shared kitchen & bathroom
[02:33:45] <Spike411> Not that there was anything interesting in the TV programme. Only Donnie Darko and Fist of the Legends. :)
[02:33:59] <Kev> I have dd on dvd somewhere
[02:34:03] <Kev> I've never watched
[02:34:06] <Kev> +i
[02:34:13] <Kev> curse you fingers
[02:34:13] <Spike411> Quite nice. :)
[02:34:17] <Kev> *I've never watched it
[02:35:22] <zenek> gn
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[02:39:28] <Spike411> I think I'll need some luck in the UK this year. :)
[02:39:53] <Spike411> some *good* luck
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[02:46:20] <Gof> bye
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[03:22:05] <iono> yaZOO
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[03:30:20] <c00i90wn> I can confirm the report of the suceed of the patch for stealing focus under windows, spike confirmed it too
[03:39:54] <c00i90wn> mblsha ^^
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[07:15:05] <iono> Please stay seated until the ride has stopped.
[07:20:06] <Restle> .
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[07:37:35] <VxJasonxV> iono: boggle
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[09:24:22] <VxJasonxV> power outages rule
[09:27:25] <muehlbucks> it's even cooler when you don't pay your electricity bill
[09:27:49] <VxJasonxV> :P
[09:27:53] <VxJasonxV> that was indeed not the problem here
[09:32:54] <muehlbucks> my first thought was that you were in florida
[09:33:31] <VxJasonxV> Arizona :)
[09:58:06] <iono> my ankle is hurting :[
[10:05:59] <VxJasonxV> Go get a foot massage, iono
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[13:14:48] <schabi> Hi. Is there any exact howto for installing a new certificate into psi 0.10-2 (debian package)? I'm using jabber.ulm.ccc.de as server, and they have a CA-Cert signed certificate.
[13:15:17] <schabi> Now I want to enable exactly this key (not all CA-Cert signed certificates), and only for my user (not global for all accounts on my machine).
[13:16:17] <schabi> All docu-alike material I found was about installing the CA-Cert root certificate globally (for all users on my linux machine), which is not what I want.
[13:17:07] <マチェック> I guess you need to put in in .psi/certs in this funny xml format
[13:18:03] <schabi> Ah, ok. Now I need to extract their key (they only link to the root certificate on http://jabber.ulm.ccc.de/ ), and to find out how to create that xml format.
[13:18:28] <マチェック> which is like this:
<store>
<certificate>
<data>your cert data from pem file, without newlines</data>
</certificate>
</store>
[13:18:38] <マチェック> there was a script doing this
[13:18:52] <schabi> ah, that looks easy.
[13:19:50] <マチェック> http://psi-im.org/wiki/SSL_Certificates_%28QCA1%29
[13:21:02] <schabi> Ah, thanks, that looks helpful.
[13:21:29] <マチェック> and the script can fetch the cert from your server
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[13:23:53] <schabi> it seemed to work fine, now testing... :-)
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[13:25:33] <schabi> hmm, I still got the error message.
[13:25:40] <マチェック> hmm
[13:25:54] <マチェック> make sure there are no new lines between <data> and </data>
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[13:26:26] <マチェック> and maybe you need to restart psi
[13:26:43] <schabi> I tried restarting psi.
[13:27:05] <schabi> the file looks okay, no whigespace at all in the data tag.
[13:27:35] <マチェック> hmm
[13:28:45] <schabi> .psi/certs/jabber.ulm.ccc.de.xml is the file name.
[13:28:48] <schabi> in my home.
[13:29:26] <マチェック> hey, smart people, please help us :)
[13:29:39] <schabi> hmm, from the readme, it looks like it has to be in .psi/ directly.
[13:29:51] <マチェック> maybe
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[13:30:16] <マチェック> honestly, I guessed this path - I always install for all users, and then it is in certs subdir
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[13:31:06] <schabi> does not work, too.
[13:31:16] <Kev> indeed
[13:31:21] <Kev> it's not working for me either
[13:31:32] <Kev> I suspect, although I don't know, that you have to import the root cert
[13:31:49] <schabi> ok, then I have to install it globally, for now. The more important point is that its the server certificate, and not the CACert Root Certificate.
[13:31:58] <Kev> oh wait
[13:31:58] <Kev> haha
[13:32:04] <Kev> I'm running 0.11, stupid me
[13:32:09] <iono> surely that was no human bee!
[13:32:45] <schabi> Kev: 0.11? But it may be the same behaviour in this respect, compared to my 0.10
[13:33:00] <Kev> nope, completely different QCA
[13:33:39] <schabi> ok, retrying with globally installed certificate...
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[13:34:41] <schabi> Still the message about an invalid certificate...
[13:35:04] <schabi> Btw, is there any way to auto-join conference rooms at psi start?
[13:35:13] <Kev> not yet
[13:35:30] <schabi> Ah, ok.
[13:35:56] <schabi> So I'd have to file a wishlist report. :-)
[13:36:31] <Kev> no
[13:36:33] <Kev> it's planned
[13:40:06] <schabi> Ah. I guess I should search the web site for the Todo/Wishlist items, and see whether I can contribute patches...
[13:40:28] <Kev> the forums and flyspray are a good place to look
[13:41:08] <Kev> although flyspray sometimes becomes swamped with bogus reports, which is why we tell people to never file anything there until we've confirmed it on the forum
[13:41:20] <schabi> Ah ok.
[13:42:01] <schabi> Another wishlist item, already in the debian bug tracker, AFAICS, is to ask for the PGP passphrase only when needed, and not on startup.
[13:42:28] <マチェック> schabi: but it is needed on sta... connecting time
[13:42:29] <schabi> I don't know whether the debian maintainer synchronizes this reports with upstream (you)...
[13:42:32] <Kev> what good would it do in the debian bug tracker? :)
[13:42:33] <マチェック> to sign your presence
[13:42:38] <Kev> but it's needed anyway I'm afraid
[13:42:47] <schabi> Kev: no idea, it was not filed by me.
[13:43:34] <schabi> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=305115 is the report - they tell that 0.10 fixed it.
[13:43:51] <schabi> Ah, even the presence is signed, and not only messages? Fine.
[13:44:30] <schabi> So, now, lets hope for the gpg passphrase agent to become mature.
[13:44:31] <マチェック> signing your presence is a way to advertise that you have gpg set up
[13:44:46] <schabi> IC.
[13:44:58] <schabi> I'm just doing another try...
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[13:45:46] <schabi> ok, having the certificate file named rootcert.xml does not help it for a local installation...
[13:48:34] <schabi> Hmm, there are lots of psi bugs filed on the debian tracker, some more than 3 years old. Seems the package maintainer resigned :-(
[13:48:54] <Kev> lots of the bugs are silly though
[13:49:11] <Kev> was just going through them
[13:49:57] <schabi> Yes, e. G. a segfault on a 3 years old release, one can ask the submitter to reproduce it, and assume that it is fixed now when he cant.
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[13:53:13] <schabi> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=308644 might be helpful. This guy said that he needed to copy the certificate into the existing rootcert file to get it work.
[13:53:36] <schabi> It might be that the cert code just searches for the first cert file it finds, and does not parse other files.
[13:53:52] <schabi> You said the code was rewritten in 0.11?
[13:54:04] <Kev> not in Psi specifically
[13:54:09] <Kev> it's a QCA thing
[13:54:19] <Kev> and Psi-0.11 uses a newer QCA
[13:55:12] <schabi> ah, ok.
[13:55:38] <schabi> Can you estimate a release date?
[13:55:42] <albert> All my certificate trouble, except those Google throw at me, went away when I upgraded to the development branch :-)
[13:55:55] <schabi> Or is it worth to try the development branch?
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[13:56:15] <Kev> release date = when it's ready
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[13:56:31] <Kev> currently all of iris, qca and qt4 aren't usable
[13:56:42] <schabi> ah, ok.
[13:56:50] <Kev> as well as the issues we need to resolve in Psi itself
[13:56:51] <Kev> well, no
[13:57:13] <schabi> Hmm, even copying the certificate into the existing global rootcert.xml does not fix it.
[13:57:14] <Kev> iris /is/ usable, but only our fork, and Justin has promised XMPP compliance by July
[13:57:21] <albert> What I meant was that it looks promising for 0.11 (certificates and handling).
[13:57:44] <schabi> Maybe I have to install the CACert root certificate :-(
[13:57:58] <albert> Doesn't debian do that for you?
[13:58:33] <マチェック> Kev: don't take it as a question from inpatient user but rather from English learner: "by July" means "before July" or "before end of July"?
[13:58:59] <Kev> it technically means 'before the start of July'
[13:59:13] <マチェック> ok, thanks
[13:59:16] <Kev> Justin's doing compliance for the compliancy testing meeting, which is early July
[13:59:27] <schabi> hmm, no idea. But it does not connect to the CACert-Signed jabber.ulm.ccc.de without a warning, despite having the servers certificate installed via the abovementioned script
[13:59:45] <schabi> Maybe I'm doing something fundamentally wron...
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[14:10:24] <schabi> OK, installing the CACert root certificate into the global rootcert.xml fixes the warning...
[14:10:59] <schabi> so i have to live with that, and hope for 0.11 :-)
[14:12:51] <Kev> 0.11 is going to be pretty nice indeed
[14:13:11] <schabi> but it is not stable enoug to give it a try yet?
[14:14:02] <Kev> it's not release quality
[14:14:14] <Kev> but most of the people in here are usngit
[14:14:36] <Restle> And eat all cpu :)
[14:14:46] <Kev> Restle: well, that's not Psi's fault
[14:15:02] <Kev> it only does that if you install the bugged Qt version
[14:15:12] <schabi> eating all cpu is not good on my notebook.
[14:15:56] <Kev> no, it's a very annoying bug in Qt
[14:16:06] <Kev> only introduced in the latest version
[14:17:39] <Restle> Oh! So if is is in qt it is not too bad :)
[14:17:56] <Kev> oh, it's bad, it's just not our problem
[14:20:27] <Restle> Heh.. psi at qt-4.1.3 and googleearth makes my speady gonsales :)))
[14:25:15] <iono> groogle arrhar
[14:27:14] <Restle> yeap
[14:27:22] <albert> I use the latest Qt and it doesn't take any cpu any longer.
[14:27:43] <albert> Ofcourse, I applied the patch mblsha talked about. I hope there are no side effects.
[14:28:11] <Kev> ah, mblsha just told me that workaround didn't work :)
[14:29:36] <Restle> what patch?
[14:30:28] <mblsha> Restle: to comment out two lines in q3dockarea.cpp
[14:33:07] <Restle> which? :)
[14:37:52] <albert> It might not work, but I don't get the symtoms.
[14:38:46] <Restle> So, which lines? :)
[14:38:47] <Kev> interesting
[14:38:54] <Kev> networking seems to have blocked torrents
[14:38:57] <Kev> how annoying of them
[14:40:19] <マチェック> Kev: welcome to the real world ;)
[14:40:44] <Kev> all I wanted to do was to grab a reactos qemu image
[14:40:47] <Kev> reactos interests me
[14:41:08] <マチェック> yes, yes, everyone says they just wanted to get sth for their education ;)
[14:41:15] <マチェック> they don't have direct download?
[14:41:46] <Kev> ah
[14:41:53] <Kev> they do, but not from where I was looking
[14:41:58] <mblsha> Restle:
void Q3DockAreaLayout::invalidate()
{
if (!dirty) // this
QApplication::postEvent(parent(), new QEvent(QEvent::LayoutHint)); // and this
[14:42:39] <Kev> I wonder if reactos can run starcraft.... ;)
[14:43:23] <マチェック> check in screenshots section: I remember seeing some games there ;)
[14:43:54] <Restle> Heh.. Thnx!
[14:48:06] <Kev> it's not /that/ fast on my heavily loaded powerbook
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[15:36:13] <マチェック> is a release coming soon? so many people here ;)
[15:37:38] <Kev> there'll be a new beta 'soon'
[15:37:47] <マチェック> :)
[15:37:57] <Kev> there's no point making one until Qt sort out 4.2
[15:38:00] <albert> And since the post about MUC in development branch alot found their way in here.
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[15:49:18] <h377r1d3r> hello
[15:49:41] <マチェック> hello
[15:50:30] <h377r1d3r> i've said that b4 but i still havn't get over it - psi and jabber seriously rocks
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[15:55:06] <iono> You are SO fired.
[15:55:27] <h377r1d3r> erm... me ?
[15:55:31] <iono> can i have 50:50? precious
[15:55:47] Kev hugs iono
[15:55:51] <iono> ~oof~
[15:55:53] <h377r1d3r> sorry
[15:56:03] <Kev> he's a bot
[15:56:29] <h377r1d3r> ok, i taught i cut into the middle of conversation
[15:59:36] <h377r1d3r> is there a skype transport ?
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[15:59:42] <Kev> nafaik
[15:59:48] <h377r1d3r> :<
[16:02:40] <schabi> skype use a highly obfuscated proprietary protocol, and highly obfuscated program code. But if you google for "skype reverse engineering", you may find the papter from
[16:03:03] <schabi> those heroes who managed to reverse engineer it. It is worth reading.
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[16:04:26] <h377r1d3r> ok thanks
[16:17:14] <schabi> h377r1d3r: And, of course, nobody here will scorn you if you implement a skype transport, I presume. :-)
[16:17:55] <h377r1d3r> haaha :)
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[16:47:37] <h377r1d3r> gtg cya
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[17:45:57] <c00i90wn> Emoticons where removed intentionally from trunk or should I report this as a bug?
[17:46:18] <Kev> emoticons still work fine :)
[17:46:41] <c00i90wn> not in windows, only default works
[17:46:47] <c00i90wn> other jisp don't load
[17:47:35] <Kev> I suspect the Qt you're using doesn't support GIFs, and the iconsets are GIF, or such
[17:47:49] <Kev> bbiab
[17:47:59] <c00i90wn> using Qt 4.1.2
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[18:20:20] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 13 Jun 14:18 - IrisNet fixes. - Remko Troncon
[18:20:21] <iono> Darcs commit 2= 13 Jun 14:18 - IrisNet import. - Remko Troncon
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[19:03:32] <Kev> c00i90wn: compiled yourself, or the default Tt packages without gif support?
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[19:27:30] <mblsha> got another reply from the trolls. the second work-around is the one i discovered by myself, and involves patching qt
[19:29:54] <Kev> meh :/
[19:30:04] <Kev> I'm using the third work-around :)
[19:30:14] <Kev> disable all toolbars :)
[19:30:36] <mblsha> just disabling event notifier toolbar won't work
[19:30:42] <Kev> does for me
[19:30:50] <mblsha> you'll have to remove event notifier label from ti
[19:30:58] <Kev> I just deleted it
[19:30:59] <mblsha> so it won't show/hide the toolbar by itself
[19:31:08] <mblsha> that would do it
[19:31:12] <Kev> :)
[19:31:45] <Kev> 16336 - Psi - kismith - 0.90%
[19:31:48] <Kev> much happier
[19:38:34] <c00i90wn> Kev: till now I was using norman's builds and didn't worked, since yesterday started compiling Psi myself
[19:39:07] <Kev> and did you compile GIF support into Qt?
[19:40:00] <c00i90wn> and yes with Qt minigw package, didn't knew that it hadn't gif support by default, guess I'll have to recompile them with GIF...
[19:41:18] c00i90wn is googling how to compile it with gif support
[19:43:51] <mblsha> ./configure -qt-gif
[19:46:47] <spike> mblsha: the psi shortcuts not working, is that a Qt bug ?
[19:46:51] <spike> mblsha: they should work in theory i would think
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[19:53:00] <c00i90wn> mblsha: thanks :)
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[19:55:25] <mblsha> spike: if it's on qt4_issue — i'm working on it!
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[19:57:07] <c00i90wn> I'll have to recompile QCA and QCA openssl?
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[19:57:22] <Kev> maybe not
[19:57:40] <Kev> as long as you keep the debug settings the same you should be alright
[19:57:52] <mblsha> Kev: and the qmake-configuration file
[19:59:01] <spike> hmmm, we use Q3PopupMenu::insertItem() all over the place, but according to the qt3 docs, it doesn't exist
[19:59:12] <mblsha> heh
[20:10:16] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 13 Jun 16:04 - Simplified MUC context menu. - Remko Troncon
[20:15:15] <spike> mblsha: can you add the scrollbar to mucconfigdlg ?
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[20:20:20] <mblsha> i'll try to
[20:35:54] <c00i90wn> FYI just reported the autocopy selected text bug to mailing list
[20:36:07] <c00i90wn> +the
[20:36:18] <Kev> another one?
[20:36:22] <Kev> beyond it just not working, I mean
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[20:38:27] <c00i90wn> nope, reported that it copies one or two characters, didn't saw the bug listed on the wiki
[20:42:05] <Kev> so it does
[20:42:39] <Kev> it does sometimes copy the entire text though
[20:42:54] <Kev> seems to not do it if you already have text you copied from psi in the clipboard
[20:43:01] <Kev> else it works ok
[20:43:49] <VxJasonxV> Howdy Kev
[20:44:03] <c00i90wn> mmm never copies the entire text here
[20:44:18] <Kev> c00i90wn: go to another application
[20:44:22] <Kev> copy a block of text
[20:44:25] <Kev> then go to psi
[20:44:32] <Kev> select a block, and try to paste it
[20:44:35] <Kev> that works ok for me
[20:44:38] <Kev> 'lo Jason
[20:45:09] <VxJasonxV> so. your common sense factor from a few days ago worked
[20:45:17] <VxJasonxV> I put the srand in main and don't have any problems ;)
[20:45:33] <VxJasonxV> and now I need to figure out how to set the lcd value to whatever random value the slider gets :/
[20:45:33] <Kev> jolly good :)
[20:45:34] <c00i90wn> Kev: nope, not here, just tried
[20:45:55] <Kev> what was the other application you used?
[20:46:07] <c00i90wn> Firefox
[20:46:20] <VxJasonxV> Qt vs. GTK eh? :P
[20:46:38] <Kev> indeed, firefox doesn't solve it here either
[20:47:41] <Kev> ah, nothing does anymore
[20:47:45] <c00i90wn> hehe
[20:49:04] <VxJasonxV> hmmm hm hm hm hm
[20:49:22] <VxJasonxV> so... is there a way for me to build a Windows binary of a Qt app, on Linux?
[20:49:35] <VxJasonxV> or would I have to get the Windows Qt compiler, and compile it on windows?
[20:49:35] <Kev> yes
[20:49:40] <VxJasonxV> sweet
[20:49:44] <Kev> but it might be hard work
[20:49:48] <VxJasonxV> :/
[20:50:06] <iono> super
[20:50:09] <VxJasonxV> Does compiling on windows require Visual Studios or cygwin for gcc?
[20:50:40] <Kev> no
[20:50:42] <Kev> mingw
[20:50:50] <VxJasonxV> mmm
[20:50:59] <Kev> which is gcc for windows
[20:51:04] <VxJasonxV> ahhh
[20:51:08] <iono> Bisto!
[20:51:10] <VxJasonxV> I didn't know that. I thought it was... just..
[20:51:15] <VxJasonxV> well, I don't know what I Thought it was
[20:51:21] <VxJasonxV> ANYWAYS. This is puzzling :/
[20:51:35] <Kev> since mingw is gcc for windows, you can cross-compile
[20:51:40] <VxJasonxV> yeah
[20:51:40] <Kev> but good luck doing it with Qt
[20:51:43] <VxJasonxV> heh
[20:51:49] <Kev> I think I could do it
[20:51:50] <iono> ;)
[20:51:54] <Kev> but I wouldn't much like to
[20:52:04] <VxJasonxV> If it's not hard to just compile on windows, I think I'll just get a little compile environment set up
[20:52:17] <Kev> you'll need to get the muc/uic/qmake correspanding to the same vesion on linux as you have on windows
[20:52:30] <VxJasonxV> yeah
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[20:54:13] <VxJasonxV> ...
[20:54:41] <VxJasonxV> this is probably a silly question, but is this even possible? creating an lcd, creating a slider with a random value, then changing the previous lcd to match the value of the slider? (in that order)
[20:54:48] <VxJasonxV> I know it's possible, and that was a stupid question
[20:55:08] <VxJasonxV> I guess I really need to find a valueOf method...
[20:55:13] <VxJasonxV> (something like it)
[20:55:23] <Kev> may I suggest that the Qt docs are your friends? :p
[20:55:29] <VxJasonxV> already on the prowl
[20:56:19] <Kev> not that you need it
[20:56:24] <Kev> you could just link the signals
[20:56:34] <Kev> and then set the value
[20:56:47] <VxJasonxV> hmmm
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[21:02:18] <VxJasonxV> ...
[21:02:24] <VxJasonxV> well that was disappointingly easy
[21:02:39] <VxJasonxV> just move the valueChanged(int) signal I already had up above where the value is set
[21:02:42] <VxJasonxV> durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[21:02:49] <VxJasonxV> hey, that means I can move on to number 7 .o/
[21:02:53] <Kev> isn't that what I just said?
[21:03:02] <VxJasonxV> well, yes
[21:03:26] <VxJasonxV> my point was that the code was already there, and all I had to do was shuffle it around
[21:03:34] <VxJasonxV> and yeah, you said that
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[21:03:57] <Spike411> Hi
[21:04:10] <Spike411> IrisNet import, that means new XMPP backend?
[21:04:17] <Kev> Spike411: no
[21:04:24] <Kev> VxJasonxV: I knew it was there ;)
[21:04:37] <VxJasonxV> yeah yeah yeah
[21:04:39] <VxJasonxV> :P
[21:05:24] <Kev> Spike411: it means nothing at the moment
[21:05:29] <Spike411> Kev: ok ok :)
[21:05:31] <Kev> ultimately it'll mean some new code, yes
[21:05:38] <Kev> but not yet
[21:05:54] <Spike411> I thought it was too sudden.
[21:06:12] <Kev> unlike muc? :p
[21:06:12] <remko> Spike411: in theory, it would already work
[21:06:21] <remko> Spike411: but i disabled it temporarily because of a segfault
[21:07:01] <Spike411> MUC... I think it was almost too late. ;)
[21:07:18] <Spike411> *joking*
[21:07:27] hawke is bursting with suggestions for muc...but I'm sure they're already known.
[21:08:27] <remko> hawke: shoot anyway
[21:08:34] <remko> hawke: except for the contact list :)
[21:09:00] <hawke> muc roster context menu, make it into a set of checkbox'd entries instead of separate grant/revoke
[21:09:18] <hawke> group muc roster by role
[21:09:23] <remko> hawke: has been done
[21:09:28] <remko> hawke: (the first)
[21:09:34] <remko> hawke: just update your darcs
[21:09:42] <remko> hawke: i told you not to mention the contact list ;)
[21:09:53] <remko> anything else ?
[21:10:06] <hawke> Oh, "except for the contact list" ... :-/
[21:10:27] <hawke> Affiliation editor distinct from room config -- i.e. 2 buttons
[21:10:39] <remko> why ?
[21:10:54] <hawke> Owners can change room config, admins can't
[21:11:00] <remko> so ?
[21:11:20] <remko> it's all configuration, right ?
[21:11:28] <remko> IMO, it belongs in the same dialog
[21:11:33] <Spike411> Gajim doesn't even have it separated in two tabs.
[21:11:54] <hawke> Why should an admin have an extra tab that they can't use?
[21:11:58] <Spike411> If you're owner, it shows everything, if you're admin, it shows only affiliations list
[21:12:08] <remko> Spike411: i don't like hiding stuff
[21:12:17] <remko> Spike411: i prefer disabling stuff
[21:12:21] <Spike411> OK
[21:12:34] <Spike411> It was just an idea to consider. :)
[21:12:38] <remko> hawke: because you are bound to get the remark "Can you configure rooms"
[21:12:39] <hawke> remko: how about having the general tab disabled for admins?
[21:13:02] <remko> i can do that
[21:13:06] <hawke> That'd be good.
[21:13:20] <hawke> OK -- drag 'n' drop to the affiliations editor from the roster.
[21:13:24] <hawke> both rosters, that is.
[21:13:54] <remko> drag n drop should work in theory
[21:14:06] <remko> but i haven't tried it, so i suppose it doesn't :D
[21:14:09] Spike411 is looking forward to d&d to invite a user... :))
[21:14:11] <remko> i'll have to check the mimetype
[21:14:12] <hawke> No, it doesn't. :-)
[21:14:19] <remko> hawke: then it's a mimetype issue
[21:14:42] <hawke> remko: how about making the "add" button always active for the affilations?
[21:15:09] <remko> hawke: well, not if you haven't got anything selected
[21:15:11] <hawke> ...also, general tab could use some auto sizing and/or a scroll bar.
[21:15:44] <remko> yes, we know
[21:15:47] <remko> misha will do that
[21:16:04] <hawke> remko: I don't think it's possible to have nothing selected...ah, it is when you first open the affil tab
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[21:16:13] <remko> indeed
[21:16:19] マチェック joins the room
[21:16:49] <hawke> but still, I think it should be allowed to hit "add" even when you have another user selected.
[21:16:56] <remko> ok
[21:18:49] <hawke> I'd prefer a simple list of contacts, each with a dropdown for their affiliation, rather than the current treeview...
[21:19:03] <remko> hawke: i don't follow you
[21:20:03] <hawke> like --
user@foo.com [ban]
user@bar.com [admin]
[21:20:17] <hawke> where "ban" and "admin" are dropdowns.
[21:20:21] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 13 Jun 17:17 - Added hidden option for chat dialog avatar size. - Remko Troncon
[21:21:06] <c00i90wn> mmm interesting commit :) always wanted to resize avatar :)
[21:21:10] <iono> :o)
[21:23:28] <hawke> brb
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[21:35:57] <schabi> bye...
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[21:45:13] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 13 Jun 17:42 - Disable general tab when not an owner. - Remko Troncon
[21:45:15] <iono> Darcs commit 2= 13 Jun 17:34 - Always enable 'add' in the affiliation editor. - Remko Troncon
[21:47:48] <hawke> remko: awesome on the changes. Not sure I like the role/affiliation as sub-menus though, for what my opinion is worth. ;-) -- it seems weird to have kick/ban still at the top level when those are just role/affiliation changes as well.
[21:48:15] <Kev> the most common though
[21:49:23] <c00i90wn> :( compiling Qt is taking a long time :(
[21:49:31] <hawke> c00i90wn: you'll have that. ;-)
[21:50:07] <hawke> heh, changing the qt theme away from motif is good. :-)
[21:50:13] <c00i90wn> I don't know when I started, but it has been compiling for an hour or so
[21:51:14] <c00i90wn> ok, from the muc log, it has been compiling for 2 hours :S
[21:52:40] <Kev> par for the course
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[21:55:12] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 13 Jun 17:53 - Switched 'general' and 'affiliations' tab in mucconfigdlg. - Remko Troncon
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[21:56:59] <c00i90wn> and to make it worse got an ERROR!! :S
[22:03:09] <hawke> I still think the submenus are unnecessary -- and if it matters I prefer the single grant/revoke voice option vs. visitor/participant options.
[22:05:54] <remko> unnecessary ?
[22:06:00] <remko> you mean you want to put them all in the main context menu ?
[22:06:11] <remko> we just had complaints that there were too many menus ;-)
[22:06:13] <remko> anyway, i like them this way
[22:06:18] <hawke> I'd say -- or at least move all of them + kick/ban into one menu
[22:06:21] <remko> and wait
[22:06:29] <remko> you just said you didn't like the grant/revoke
[22:06:58] <remko> [19:08:58] <hawke> muc roster context menu, make it into a set of checkbox'd entries instead of separate grant/revoke
[22:07:08] <remko> [20:03:08] <hawke> I still think the submenus are unnecessary -- and if it matters I prefer the single grant/revoke voice option vs. visitor/participant options.
[22:07:09] <hawke> remko: what I mean is a voice option checkbox instead of two checkboxes, one for visitor and participant
[22:08:07] <remko> the only problem is that you have redundant entries. There's no such thing as an admin without voice options
[22:08:13] <remko> i like this menu setup
[22:08:15] <hawke> so all the same options you had when they were grant and revoke, but implemented as checkable menu entries instead of a grant entry and a revoke entry.
[22:08:44] <remko> hawke: yeah, i know what you mean, but there's too much redundancy in there
[22:08:57] <hawke> THere is?
[22:09:45] <remko> yes, voice and moderator overlap, and member/admin/owner overlap as well
[22:09:49] <hawke> I can currently right-click on an admin and there's still an option for "visitor".
[22:10:10] <remko> i'm not talikng about affiliation/role overlap
[22:10:27] <hawke> well, you mentioned "there's no such thing as an admin without voice options"
[22:10:34] <remko> i meant a moderator
[22:10:36] <hawke> ah
[22:10:38] <remko> moderator without voice options
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[22:11:10] <hawke> OK. What do you think about moving them into one menu, with a separator?
[22:11:21] <hawke> I think "role" and "affiliation" as terms are not very clear...
[22:11:34] <hawke> so which one you'll need for a given case is not immediately obvious.
[22:11:35] <remko> hawke: i tried separating them, that makes it very hard
[22:11:50] <remko> hawke: without 'role' and 'affiliation', it's even less clear
[22:12:32] <hawke> remko: Not really -- if I want to give someone moderator privs, "Moderator" is obvious. But it's not obvious that it is a role
[22:12:41] <remko> it most certainly is not ;)
[22:12:51] <remko> i'm not saying 'role' and 'affiliation' is easy
[22:12:54] <hawke> People don't go "I want to assign someone a role...I want to give them moderator"
[22:13:06] <hawke> they go "I want to give them moderator, now which is it?"
[22:13:19] <remko> but to me, putting 'admin' 'owner' and 'moderator' in one menu makes you think that they are all various 'roles'
[22:13:31] <remko> whereas there is a gigantic difference between admin and moderator
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[22:13:39] <Kev> fwiw
[22:13:39] <remko> although they imply the same powers basically
[22:13:47] <Kev> I think it's a horrible complicated mess
[22:13:52] <hawke> Kev: yes!
[22:14:00] <remko> i thought so too
[22:14:03] <Kev> and I'd be happy to see affiliations removed completely from the context menus
[22:14:04] <remko> it isn't, really
[22:14:09] <hawke> remko: the thing is, moderator and admin are the same, except for persistence.
[22:14:14] <remko> Kev: ah yes, that makes sense
[22:14:20] <hawke> that'd work too.
[22:14:23] <Kev> because they're a room config option, not a state issue
[22:14:24] <remko> Kev: i'm going to do that
[22:14:27] <deucalion> there's a fix for http://www.trolltech.com/developer/task-tracker/index_html?id=116103&method=entry ?
[22:14:30] <remko> Kev: indeed, that clarifies things
[22:14:31] <Kev> 'ban' is an exception
[22:14:48] <hawke> well, we could remove roles as well
[22:14:54] <remko> Kev: do i put them all in the toplevel menu again, or do i leave it in a 'change role' menu ?
[22:14:58] <remko> hawke: no, you can't
[22:15:00] <hawke> in favor of drag and drop, if we had a roster tree style...
[22:15:23] <Kev> remko: leave the affiliations (check I have this right: member, owner, banned) into the affiliation editor
[22:15:36] <remko> Kev: yes, i know
[22:15:48] <Kev> and in the context menu for the roster only have kick, moderator, admin (and ban)
[22:16:09] <remko> Kev: you mean participant, visitor, and moderator
[22:16:17] <hawke> Is there any plan to make the muc roster have a tree view?
[22:16:20] <Kev> I may very well do so
[22:16:21] <remko> hawke: yes
[22:16:23] <remko> hawke: but no dnd
[22:16:27] <hawke> because we could get rid of the context menu if we did that...oh.
[22:16:34] <Kev> visitor/particpant is different in voice?
[22:16:39] <remko> Kev: aye
[22:16:40] <hawke> Kev: yes
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[22:16:50] <remko> Kev: do i leave it in a separate submenu, or move it back up ?
[22:16:55] <remko> Kev: under 'kick' and 'ban'
[22:17:14] <Kev> it was much too long before, undoubtedly
[22:17:21] <Kev> looking now
[22:17:33] <hawke> remko: why no dnd? I can see not doing it immediately, but...
[22:17:50] <Kev> can you make the states toggles?
[22:17:54] <remko> hawke: it's too much work at this time to make a good contactlist
[22:17:57] <Kev> or is that already done?
[22:17:59] <remko> Kev: that's done
[22:18:06] <Kev> they can stay toplevel then
[22:18:11] <Kev> it's only three items
[22:18:39] <remko> Kev: however, then it's hard to see that they are toggles
[22:18:48] <Kev> why?
[22:18:50] <remko> Kev: except that one menuitem has a toggle, the others don't
[22:18:56] <hawke> They're not toggles, they're radio buttons..
[22:18:57] <remko> Kev: so between 'Ban' and 'Visitor'
[22:19:07] <hawke> (effectively)
[22:19:11] <remko> Kev: you don't see any difference between a command and a state
[22:19:36] <Kev> I'm not unhappy with a submenu
[22:19:44] <remko> i think i'm going to leave it
[22:19:51] <Kev> but equally, it's less effort for the user if the're not, unless it's very confusing
[22:20:01] <remko> it sounds confusing to me
[22:20:23] <remko> menus should be commands, unless they're submenus (then they are specification of a command, in this case 'Change role')
[22:20:33] <remko> although that's remko ui style guidelines :)
[22:21:57] <remko> i don't see a problem with too many clicks, changing the role of someone is not really a frequent operation
[22:22:32] <hawke> if all affiliations are moved to the config dialog, I'd say the submenu is fine
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[22:22:50] <hawke> the only part I found confusing was that there are two submenus which do very similar things.
[22:24:05] <Spike411> hawke: role & affiliation are quite different
[22:24:14] <Spike411> hawke: in the moderated room, that is
[22:24:17] <remko> yeah, but they are confusing when allocated close together :)
[22:24:26] <remko> now they are far apart
[22:24:35] <Spike411> Heh, OK. :)
[22:24:55] <remko> which is good. Having affiliations in the room config dialog makes it look like a 'permanent' thing, and the thing in the roster as a 'temporary' thing
[22:25:08] <hawke> Spike411: they're really not that different. They both assign privileges -- the only real difference between a role and affiliation is persistence.
[22:25:58] <remko> Kev: do we like the word 'role' ?
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[22:28:57] <Kev> remko: not if we can avoid it
[22:29:30] <Spike411> Is it a bad word? :)
[22:29:44] <Kev> why do we need it?
[22:30:08] <hawke> Heh, if they're in the top level menu we don't...
[22:30:22] <remko> Kev: to name the menu
[22:30:24] <Kev> 'Grant/revoke'
[22:30:34] <Kev> I guess we can do role
[22:30:36] <Spike411> The top level menu was
a) big
b) confusing
:)
[22:30:48] <hawke> Kev: we can't revoke roles..
[22:30:59] <Kev> hawke: you can
[22:31:16] <Kev> if you're a moderator, I can revoke that by making you a participant
[22:31:20] <Kev> or whatever the terms are
[22:31:23] <remko> Kev: it's either 'grant voice + revoke voice + grant mod + revoke mod', or 'Visitor,Participant,Moderator' with checkboxes
[22:31:31] <hawke> Kev: but you don't revoke it -- it's like radio buttons vs. checkboxes.
[22:31:41] <Kev> anyway
[22:31:57] <Kev> role->Visitor,Participant,Moderator' with checkboxes
[22:32:07] <Kev> it's less messy, I fear
[22:32:29] <hawke> Spike411: It shrinks from 10 items to 5 by using checkboxes instead of separate grant and revoke options, and down to 3 by having only roles. So "big" isn't really a problem, IMO.
[22:32:51] <remko> well, the grant/revokes menu are also messy, and putting them in a toplevel menu together with the commands is also messy
[22:33:36] <remko> (them == roles)
[22:33:51] <remko> a better string than 'change role' might help
[22:33:55] <remko> but i can't think of one
[22:36:19] <hawke> I think "change role" is fine.
[22:38:18] <hawke> I think that the affiliation editor is now not obvious enough, since affiliations are moved out of the context menu.
[22:38:35] <remko> tough luck :)
[22:38:46] <remko> affiliations are for advanced users only ;)
[22:39:11] <hawke> remko: uh, what? only advanced users want to grant or revoke privileges?
[22:39:24] <hawke> ...is there any reason to have the configure button active for people less than moderator?
[22:39:43] <remko> yes
[22:39:54] <remko> members can request member lists
[22:40:25] <hawke> or rather, only advanced users want to grant/revoke some privileges, while non-advanced users want to grant other privileges? Seems strange to me.
[22:40:34] <hawke> ah, ok
[22:40:51] <remko> what's wrong with the affiliations editor ?
[22:41:40] <hawke> remko: Nothing by itself, except that it's the only way to edit affiliations now -- I think the context menu makes more sense for that.
[22:41:56] <remko> why would you want to do that in a context menu ?
[22:42:02] <remko> it sounds like an operation you seldom do
[22:42:28] <hawke> remko: but do I do that so much more seldom than granting voice for example?
[22:43:03] <hawke> I've banned more people than I've voiced, I can tell you that. :-)
[22:43:12] <remko> well, banning is still available :)
[22:43:24] <hawke> ...and probably granted more admin than voice...
[22:43:32] <remko> granting voice is something you do 'in conversation'
[22:43:52] <remko> hawke: it's not only frequency actually, neither of these operations happen frequently
[22:44:04] <remko> it's more like giving the impression that it is more permanent by moving it out of reach
[22:44:34] <hawke> Right, it's more of an interface thing.
[22:45:18] <hawke> the way people want to use roles and affiliations are the same.
[22:45:55] <hawke> but the way they work is very slightly different.
[22:46:05] <hawke> so we put them in completely different places?
[22:46:09] <hawke> that doesn't make sense.
[22:46:20] <remko> it does to me
[22:47:01] <hawke> ...
[22:47:57] <hawke> That's like putting spoons and knives in drawers on opposite sides of the kitchen because they work differently.
[22:48:28] <remko> hawke: there is no better solution than this
[22:48:56] <hawke> remko: I disagree.
[22:48:56] <remko> hawke: if you put them close together, people are very confused, as they are similar yet totally different
[22:49:17] <remko> you need to make sure people understand that they are totally different
[22:49:26] <remko> one is an ad-hoc thing, the other is a life time membership card
[22:49:50] <hawke> remko: you're going to either have confusion of "why don't these options persist" or confusion of "how the heck do I make someone a moderator permanently" --I'd rather have the first, you'd rather have the second.
[22:50:28] <remko> i prefer that than 'what the hell is the difference between an admin and a moderator'
[22:51:58] <hawke> I think the separator is an adequate distinction -- "the options below the separator operate slightly differently"
[22:52:13] <hawke> besides, that question is one of terminology.
[22:52:57] <remko> i'll think about it
[22:53:02] <remko> but i haven't heard any solution better than what we have
[22:53:09] <remko> IMO :)
[22:53:27] <remko> permanent things belong in the room configuration
[22:54:03] <Kev> well, there is another way
[22:54:04] <hawke> Yes, I agree with that part.
[22:54:11] <Kev> go back to two submenus
[22:54:14] <hawke> no reason to remove the affiliation editor.
[22:54:18] <remko> gee
[22:54:26] <Kev> and label them 'permanent affiliations' and 'temporary roles'
[22:54:34] <Kev> but I don't like it
[22:54:42] <remko> i wish you told me that before :)
[22:54:47] <remko> but yeah, that menu is too long
[22:55:12] <remko> iono
[22:55:13] <iono> Darcs commit 1= 13 Jun 18:26 - Removed affiliations submenu. - Remko Troncon
[22:55:14] <hawke> remko: I hate to bring in comparisons to other clients, but I find that the way gajim does this is the best, and is the way I'm describing. It's the first time I've seen the role/affiliation be obvious enough.
[22:55:16] <remko> :)
[22:55:30] <remko> hawke: that is because you know the difference
[22:55:38] <remko> make me a screenshot, i have yet to find a machine that runs gajim ;)
[22:56:26] <remko> actually, pandion wasn't bad either
[22:56:33] <remko> i should find me a machine that shows me that UI again
[22:56:35] <hawke> yes, I know the difference...but the difference of "persistence" is just one more difference in a set of others.
[22:57:06] <hawke> hmm...
[22:57:11] <hawke> WOnder how I can get a screenshot
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[23:01:04] <hawke> any ideas on how to get a screenshot?
[23:01:07] <remko> os ?
[23:01:12] <hawke> Linux/GNOME
[23:01:29] <remko> import -window root bla.png
[23:01:46] <hawke> Heh, but I can't get to a prompt w/o losing the context menu
[23:01:57] <remko> sleep 5; import -window root bla.png
[23:02:01] <remko> :)
[23:02:07] <Spike411> Yeah, that sux.
[23:02:10] <remko> use your imagination
[23:02:13] <Spike411> hehe
[23:02:42] <hawke> Awesome, that worked nicely.
[23:02:49] <hawke> thansk for the suggestion
[23:07:09] <remko> anything to get a screenshot of gajim
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[23:13:45] <VxJasonxV> is GoogleTalk busted at the moment?
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[23:22:16] <c00i90wn> I'm getting this when compiling Qt, any ideas? qjpeg1.dll: Permission denied
[23:23:04] deucalion joins the room
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[23:27:15] <deucalion> c00i90wn: ntfs permissions?
[23:27:29] <remko> out of space ?
[23:27:41] <c00i90wn> deucalion: Seems fine
[23:28:11] <c00i90wn> remko: was out of space but now deleted 3gb so space shouldn't be a problem now
[23:30:08] <c00i90wn> I have read that reinstalling or creating a new makefile could fix that, going to try that now :|
[23:30:24] <c00i90wn> already spent 4 hours compiling Qt
[23:30:26] <c00i90wn> :S
[23:31:47] <c00i90wn> going to put Qt to compile for the third time while I take a nap, cya
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[23:35:33] <hawke> remko: http://web.hawkesnest.net/users/hawke/images/gajim-contextmenu.png
[23:38:43] <remko> yeah, so that 'voice' and 'moderator' is probably inconsistent, right ?
[23:38:47] <deucalion> competetive screenshot :P
[23:38:48] <deucalion> :)
[23:38:51] <iono> =]
[23:38:55] <remko> it's not a checkbox, and it's not a radio button either
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[23:40:08] <deucalion> special character from a custom font? svg?
[23:40:14] <deucalion> *fetching source*
[23:41:11] <hawke> remko: it works as a checkbox, regardless of how it's implemented
[23:41:33] <remko> hawke: it doesn't in our menu
[23:41:36] <remko> hawke: it's a radio button
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[23:42:41] <hawke> remko: ah, Qt doesn't allow multi-select menu items?
[23:42:52] <remko> hawke: yes it does, that's not my point
[23:43:12] <hawke> remko: OK -- does it have to be a radio button in Psi's menu?
[23:43:23] <remko> hawke: my point is that 'voice' and 'admin' are exclusive, so you can't have both checked at the same time. Hence, it's not a checkbox collection.
[23:43:43] <hawke> remko: sure you can have both -- they're just cumulative.
[23:43:45] <remko> hawke: on the other hand, 'voice' or 'admin' do not need a checkbox, so it's not a radio button either
[23:43:56] <remko> hawke: i'm not talking about technical possibility
[23:44:02] <hawke> an admin is implicitly a member and moderator.
[23:44:05] <remko> hawke: i'm talking about it being unintuitive
[23:44:51] <remko> hawke: i say, either you make exclusive checkboxes, or you make a list of things that you can each check seeparately
[23:45:07] <remko> anyway, we'll have to agree that we disagree on this matter ;)
[23:45:23] <hawke> remko: anyway, the point isn't about the voice.
[23:45:28] <remko> i don't like that menu
[23:45:46] <hawke> you could as easily have visitor, participant, moderator.
[23:45:55] <remko> to me, it's as if that list is a one-dimensional list
[23:45:59] <remko> whether there are two dimensions
[23:46:12] <hawke> and then you'd have two sets of exclusive checklists, with a separator to distinguish them.
[23:48:31] <remko> by the way, another reason for moving the p
[23:48:42] <hawke> It's all about setting privileges; some of them imply others (affiliations imply roles) and some privileges deny others (admins can't be devoiced)
[23:48:57] <remko> ermanent affiliations in the configure room is that the 'general' room configuration in some muc implementation also provides some 'permanent' role settings
[23:49:44] <hawke> remko: the "General" tab isn't disabled in room config.
[23:50:11] <remko> it is here
[23:50:13] <hawke> Also, every affiliation is now being doubled.
[23:50:23] <remko> it is ?
[23:50:29] <remko> allow myself to check
[23:50:46] <hawke> remko: it's disabled in that clicking on it has no effect, but mousing over it highlights the tab, which makes it feel active.
[23:51:04] <remko> ok
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[23:51:16] <hawke> and clicking on it makes the Psi "spinner" (?)spin once
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[23:52:49] <deucalion> in recent trunk, "general" is mousehoverable but clicking it leads to no result... "disabled" in a way
[23:52:57] <badk> look my photo !!
[23:53:02] <badk> info
[23:53:09] <hawke> deucalion: right -- it has no effect, but it doesn't feel disabled.
[23:53:14] <badk> count the starts !
[23:53:44] <deucalion> remko: if the text for "general" would be greyed out, it would "feel" more like it was disabled... if thats possible
[23:53:53] <remko> yeah, i get the idea guys
[23:53:55] <remko> i'm not an idiot
[23:53:56] <remko> :)
[23:54:04] <hawke> lol
[23:54:07] <deucalion> hehe
[23:54:33] <remko> i thought it was a qt issue, but i realize it is not. fixing it now
[23:54:47] <deucalion> *making ready for rebuild" ;)
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[23:56:39] <hawke> remko: the "configure room" button going to the affiliation editor is kinda weird, IMO.
[23:57:05] <remko> noted, but again disagreeing :D
[23:57:40] <hawke> Understood, it might just be me, being used to the distinction between room config and affiliation editing. :-D
[23:57:51] deucalion disagrees with hawke as well this time tho
[23:58:05] <deucalion> but the affiliations are part of the room config..
[23:58:08] <hawke> Oh, I mean it's fine that it gets there.
[23:58:18] <hawke> It's just weird for that to be the initial tab.
[23:58:26] <deucalion> mmmh... _that_s true
[23:58:39] <remko> hawke: *sigh*
[23:58:44] <remko> are you guys even Psi users at all ?
[23:58:48] <hawke> lol
[23:58:51] VxJasonxV !
[23:58:55] <hawke> I am, yes.
[23:59:02] <VxJasonxV> +is
[23:59:04] <deucalion> remko: making it "read only" so you can see the room config and making the affil tab 2nd would seem more "irc-like"/intuitive/nicer :)
[23:59:26] <hawke> deucalion: the problem is, I don't think many MUC servers let non-admins view the room config
[23:59:31] <deucalion> remko: I need my daily darcs pull from psi, so I can safely say yes, I use psi
[23:59:32] <deucalion> :P
[23:59:36] <iono> I've already got one
[23:59:38] <iono> Yes yes, it's very nice.
[23:59:47] <remko> hawke: i can bump the minimum requirement to member
[23:59:50] <deucalion> hawke: not even view? *checking muc JEP*

ejabberd/mod_muc log